Tony Cummings spoke at length to hitmaking gospel hip-hop man Da' T.R.U.T.H.

Da' T.R.U.T.H: Oh, absolutely. I think the main thing for us as believers is establishing a world-view that Christ is central to. So, whatever the content of the song - whether we are talking about money, or relationships, or sexuality, or business - whatever the subject matter - we just have to make sure that it's not offensive to God. And that it's fuelled, like you say, by a Christian perspective. Now I will say this though: to your point about not liking the Christian label, I tell people that for me it doesn't matter either way. The reason why I say that is because when you look at hip-hop especially - I'm going to use mainstream examples - 50 Cent was just on the Breakfast Club. The Breakfast Club is kind of a big deal in the States. It's a talk show basically. They play music. 50 Cent was on the Breakfast Club and the guy who was interviewing him said "You seem to be mostly comfortable when you're talking like a gangster." Now, I'm always curious because I'm 10 to 15 years removed from that life. 50 Cent said to him, "You know what, the reason why it sounds like I'm mostly comfortable talking like a gangster is because I am mostly comfortable talking like a gangster." So 50 is a person that you would classify as gangsta rap. By their own admission Lupe Fiasco, Kendrick Lamar - that's how they classify themselves. As socially conscious rappers. The one thing I see the mainstream not doing is they don't spend their time trying to get away and shake those labels off. There is nothing more limiting than being labelled a gangster. If you're trying to shake the label of fear, of being limited or not getting opportunities, what can hinder your opportunities any more than being classified as a gangster? Yet, in the mainstream, when they are labelled that way they embrace it and they wear it as a badge of honour. The thing for me is, whether you want to label yourself that way or not or whether you like the label or not I just don't think that that's a label we should run from. Because the truth of the matter is that the reason why these mainstream artists are comfortable being labelled the way that they're labelled - socially conscious, gangster, etc - is because they understand that it is a social conscience that is fuelling the content of their music. And it is a gangster background and lifestyle and brand and perspective that is fuelling the content of their music. They don't mind being classified that way because there is truth in it. So myself, as a Christian artist, I don't mind people giving me that label. On the song "J.I.F.E." I talk briefly about a conversation that I had with Kanye West. The thing that I love about that story is the fact that I started the conversation off with "I'm a Christian rapper" and that's how we ended up talking. I started it with, "Hey, how're you doing? My name is Truth and I'm a Christian hip-hop artist." From that point forward he began to express some things. He told me about his relationship with God, etc, etc. So I think there is actually some value to it as well.

Tony: The difficulty though for somebody who's never met Kanye West and only endeavouring to put it together from what we hear on his records, he sounds a spiritually very confused man. To claim that songs are about Christ and yet full of the F word to me seems such a contradiction.

Da' T.R.U.T.H.: This is always very difficult. People will make a beeline to don't judge him, always trying to tread lightly. But just let me say what I naturally think. I will be honest. There is a brand of Christianity which I do not believe is Christianity at all. The Kanye Wests of the world, the Kardashian. Again, let me just qualify it by saying this: they could be Christians in process. That's the part we don't know. You follow me? They could be Christians that God is in the process of sanctifying and we just don't know where they are in that process. Maybe they're undiscipled. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt. Everybody panders to them, nobody challenges them. Who knows? What I tend to lean towards though is that these are not really Christians. I think these are people who to me fall into those two categories - faith without works is dead and even demons believe and shudder. I think of Matthew 7 where Jesus says "Many will say to me 'Lord, Lord I do this and that in your name' and he would say 'Depart from me, I never knew you.' For us as Christians the only thing that we have to make a determination about somebody's faith is their fruit. That's it. That's all we have and all we can do is inspect fruit. So if we don't see fruit then we are left with drawing a certain conclusion. That may be a hard pill to swallow but unless you give us something else to go on that's all we kind of have. I agree with you 100%.

Tony: Let's talk a little bit about this forthcoming album of yours. What makes it different from 'Live', 'Open Book', 'The Big Picture', 'The Whole Truth'?

Da' T.R.U.T.H.: Number one, I feel like the space I was in working on this album felt like the space that I was in working on my second album - this is my eighth. So, honestly, I haven't felt this good about the content, direction, music, etc. of any of my projects since 'The Faith'.

Tony: Why is that?

Da' T.R.U.T.H.; I think what happened was that last year God kind of impressed upon my heart to go back to first works. I was reminded of the church of Ephesus - it was interesting to me because I studied that in second class. In Revelation Jesus is going down the list of all the reasons why they are amazing. All the reasons why any of us will look at those types of Christians and say they are solid believers. Jesus basically affirms them in that. You can spot Paul's apostles from a mile away . . .

Tony: That's right. But although they were good at rejecting the heresy of the Nicolaitans - whatever the heresy of the Nicolaitans actually was (I don't think anybody actually knows) - they neglected their first love and indeed history tells us within 50 or 60 years of the letter being written in Revelation, God did indeed remove the candlestick and that church ceased to exist. So that's a very salient warning, that if we haven't got love, we haven't got it at all.

Da' T.R.U.T.H: That's right. And it's interesting because I went to Ephesus. You know the signs - Welcome to Pennsylvania, Welcome to wherever you're driving into - when you go there it's Welcome to Turkey (cos it's in Turkey) and it's a crescent and a moon. Which means that it's 90% Muslim now. You see the evidence of their failure to respond to the warning to turn back to their first love and go back to their first works. So I took it seriously when I felt that God was impressing that on me, to go back to first works. When I did that, I basically shut off social media, I just stripped everything down. I declined offers from the Doves to be a presenter, I declined offers from the Stellar, I declined all offers to do the fluff - to me. At least last year. I'm not saying I won't go next year. Last year it was just kind of fluff to me. So I went back to going out on the street, evangelising, engaging people, witnessing. So just going back to where it all started. What really informed my music early on was the grit and the grind of the faith. It was the getting out there, being engaged, having hard conversations, talking to a Muslim and having my faith shaken and having to go back to the scriptures and wrestle through stuff. All that is the stuff that fuelled and formed my music early on. So when you ask me why this is different I think it's because I went back to that space where everything was just stripped down and I was immersed in books and researching and engaging with what I believe to be the main thing and the most important things when the curtain is drawn and the lights go off from the stage, to me these are some of the most important things. I think that's the spirit of the space I was in when I was working on this album that makes this album special.