Mike Rimmer went to Nashville where he met up with one of Christendom's most gifted rappers, JOHN REUBEN

He continues, "I know for me more than ever, I just want to feel creative and make some honest songs. I'm not nearly as competitive probably. You kind of lose that edge, at least for me at this point. I'm not sure I was ever really comfortable feeling competitive but as I get older, I want to write some fun stuff and find the people who connect with it."

But surely as John Reuben has got a bit older and recorded successful albums, he is established enough to realise he doesn't have to prove himself anymore. 'Word Of Mouth' is his sixth release. Amongst rappers, that qualifies him as a veteran! He responds, "The nature of music and society is things come and go pretty quick and so you feel this underlying pressure to always be on top and relevant and study the psyche of teenage and early-20s culture and figure out what's making everybody click. By the time you do that everybody's onto something else anyway so why don't you just do what feels natural and let people grow with you? I'm pretty well aware that I'm not the coolest dude but I feel like, if you're making music that's good then you can find a fan base even if they aren't buying into it because I'm not the cool thing. I feel like I write really solid stuff and I think that people still can enjoy that and take something from it. I just don't want to start pushing well into my 30s and trying to figure out how to be hip to kids! Not to say that I don't think kids will like the music but I do think to a certain degree kids can see through that. I feel like: just go ahead and be a 30-year-old. Be a 35-year-old. Be a 40-year-old. Do what you do. You can love what you do. You can love youthful music but I want to grow. I want to be my age. I don't want to try to figure out a way to mask that I'm in my early 30s or something like that to try to appeal to a younger audience. I would rather younger audiences know that I'm in my early 30s. I still think they'll enjoy what we do."

I have to admit that it took me a while to take John Reuben seriously. On his earlier albums, there were those silly songs and the even sillier videos. He seemed like a light weight pop rapper but like many others, I had misjudged him. Did he realise he was being written off at the time? He confesses, "I never realised it as much until later on. When I got signed it was like, everything in context. I realised, 'Okay, I'm on a Christian record label. I'm going to be playing shows for kids and I'm going to have fun with that. I'm going to write what I think is some thought-provoking music and make it fun for these kids.' I'm proud of everything I've done. I'm proud of all the ridiculous videos I've shot. I still love those videos. Not to even say that I wouldn't do it again!" he laughs. "I like all that stuff and I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding with humour where they think, 'Awh, that's just humour. That's immaturity.' It's like, well I think humour is on the forefront sometimes of observing culture and even has some really good insight to the little nuances in people that make them insecure. It has a good look. It has a lot of insight, and I think sometimes people overlook that as just being silly or whatever. It IS supposed to be silly but there's also a lot of thought behind it, so you sometimes get overshadowed when people aren't wired that way. In the meantime they're listening to horrible lyricists but with some kind of melancholy melody and they think it's deep. It's kind of, well, your emotions are definitely getting the best of you at that point."

The way that Reuben uses humour is that he is able to attack things and make people laugh but as they are laughing they suddenly realise that there's a barb in the song that is very effective. "Absolutely," agrees Reuben. "And my favourite songs are those uncomfortable ones where it's like, one minute you're thinking, 'Yeah, this is a great hook! This is a fun pop tune!' and then, 'Oh, wait a second, this is kind of uncomfortable.' And I like that. I like that tension. I like that tension between fun and innocent and then really uncomfortable and biting, because I think it gives you a couple of ways that you can listen to and enjoy the song. It's a good balance; it's an enjoyable tune but it's also, if you want the message it's there. So I think I'm getting better at writing like that."

He has been making music full time since he signed to Gotee Records in 2000 but hip-hop itself is only as old as Reuben himself. In rock'n'roll we're now used to artists carrying on until old age. The earliest rockers to emerge from the American south, if they haven't gone to meet their maker, occasionally still tour. The British artists from the early 60s are now pensionable but that doesn't stop the Rolling Stones or Paul McCartney from making new albums and touring. It's become legit for old men to play rock'n'roll. We haven't had that for hip-hop yet which is still seen as a young person's music form. Can Reuben envisage himself at 50 years old still rapping? "As of now, no. You know what? It just depends. I think the attitude has a lot to do with it. I don't want to act like I'm 18 now that I'm 30, you know? I think for me it's just more or less, as long as I'm being true to where I'm at in life I think the music would morph. So who knows, if I'm still doing music when I'm 50 I'm sure it'll make sense when I'm 50."

I point out that hip-hop as a culture will have to learn how to grow old because it has always had that youth culture association to it. "Yeah," he agrees, "I think now it is starting to learn. A lot of these artists are getting older; a lot of popular artists. Even the originators are now in their 40s and 50s so it's definitely learning how to get older and grow with time. You have a lot of artists like De La Soul and some of that early '90s hip-hop, those guys are in their late-30s, early-40s. They're still bouncing around packing out 500 seats a night, making a living out of what they do. Some of the really good stuff that I actually grew up on, I actually 'get it' now more than I did when I was younger. I mean, there's a lot of art to it. It wasn't just a 'shoot 'em up, shoot 'em up!' type thing like some of the stereotypes that come with hip-hop, there's a lot of creative thought, a lot of creative energy being put into the music so these songs kind of live on the older you get. I mean, I'm 30 years old and still playing De La Soul and it's completely relevant to me as far as where I'm at in life."

Obviously listening to those early '90s artists is what inspired John Reuben to do this in the first place. He remembers, "I liked the creativity and the simplicity in it. With an MC and a really cool beat you got the feeling that you knew the person that was talking to you and that was very attractive to me, much in the same way that I think people sometimes like singer/songwriter stuff; really stripped down. I loved the energy, the way they could tell stories and paint pictures."

Hip-hop music, whilst the dominant music form in popular culture for a number of years, has always been the poorer cousin in Christian music. Why does Reuben think that is? Normally Christian music is really happy to imitate the popular culture. He laughs, "I think you'd get a number of answers from people who have good ideas on that. I've kind of gone back and forth on why that is. I partially think it's due to the nature of a lot of what hip-hop thrives on; the self-absorbed and at times.just flat-out debauchery. I think trying to take those same attitudes and mix it with Jesus just doesn't make sense to a lot of people. I think there's been some great artists out there. I think what people don't realise is a lot of the non-Christian hip-hop that I really like still is unpopular; the more positive, thoughtful stuff isn't popular. So I think it's just a matter of what the media wants. I think it's the same way with rock and roll. I think a lot of rock and roll that I like in the mainstream isn't real popular, especially here in America. But I feel with Christian hip-hop I would say that might be one thing, or perhaps it's just a matter of.who knows.undisclosed prejudice. I have no idea. I have no idea necessarily where it comes from or why it wasn't as good. I think people view it as a kid's music even though a lot of the hip-hop artists I know have a lot more to say and have been a lot more thought provoking than some of the really bad worship music out there that I've heard, where it's just really [superficial] stuff."

There's bad worship music out there? Surely not! "Are you allowed to say that?! I don't know!" He continues, "I think too you got artists back in the day like Lauryn Hill and stuff where she had a very unique voice and she got really popular, not only as far as the tone of her voice and the way she sang but also what she had was very unique in the culture and very thought provoking. It's probably the closest example where I think gospel hip-hop should have moved. Obviously I wouldn't lump her into.not getting into the religion debate or anything like that as far as spiritual stuff goes but just as far as, instead of imitating, be creative! Whether you're rock or hip-hop, just be creative! Do your own thing. Find your own voice. You're a believer; that should affect how you see the world. It should affect your character. It should affect what you want to talk about, but it's just kind of: now that you don't shoot people you shoot demons, you know, these sort of things?! It sounds ridiculous! All the phrases, like, I don't know if 'pimp' should ever be referred to as far as anything spiritual, you know? I mean, there is no alternative to.I'm trying to use my words wisely.there's just no alternative to certain things. Some things you just have to accept, 'I'm not going to be this. I'm going to rise above that and I'm going to find a unique voice. I'm going to find something creative and something bigger than this; something that's more unique than this.' And if your sales suffer because of it well then so be it. It's your duty to go a little deeper as a believer and not just become some sloppy second rate alternative. That's silly. It's always been silly. There's a lot of good gospel hip-hop but you listen to the mainstream and the mainstream is pretty bad as well. I mean, mainstream radio, there's a lack of creativity in hip-hop all across the board."

So what about approaching a new album? I wonder when Reuben comes afresh to a new project is it just a question of whatever thoughts are bouncing around your head, that's what's going to be on the album? "Yeah, pretty much," he concurs. "As you can see, sometimes I'm a pretty bad communicator. I'm not as dumb as I appear! I just get really jumbled in my mind when I talk so I think that's why I write songs. It's the best way I know how to communicate and say what's on my heart. So I'll be taking all these scattered thoughts and making them somewhat cohesive hopefully."

Obviously themes are emerging for Reuben but it's early days. "I've read a lot of Ecclesiastes and I've read a lot of Proverbs over the last couple of years. I've learned a lot about being quiet; shutting my mouth! So I'm trying to make sense of that with the world I live in as far as an artist; and a Christian artist. It's a very tough challenge to do when you're taught that you're not supposed to be a know-it-all but yet we operate on bold proclamations and saying, 'This is the way it is!' But I've been learning a lot about being quiet and listening."

You can imagine that for Reuben this must create quite a bit of creative tension. It's a theme that is difficult to communicate on a hip-hop record because a hip-hop record is all about talking as much as possible! "And trying to act like you know," he observes. "For me it was like, I used to really feel like I knew everything, I really did; whether I would admit that or not, these are hard things to learn about yourself. Not that I regret anything I've ever said because you go through different phases in life and you learn, but it's really tough. I've made some really bold proclamations and sometimes you have to look back and say, 'Did I really have the authority to say that?' Not even the authority from God, just the authority, the knowledge. Humans are so complicated and there's so much history and stories behind people, so to just make these blanket statements.you know? I feel like I'm getting better songs because of that."

So if he's learning about being quiet and not saying something, can we expect the John Reuben instrumental album? He laughs, "No! Well, I would have to learn how to play an instrument in order to give you an instrumental album! It's funny about all of this; you'll get my next album and it'll probably have a bunch of really ridiculous. everything I'm saying I'm not going to do! But it's just kind of where I've been at. It's been difficult to write because I've just been putting a lot of thought into what I say and how I approach things. Again, I don't want to act like I'm 18 years old when I'm 30. So we'll see."