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radioThese are reader comments for the article 'Newcastle Cathedral Choir, Scott Farrell - Glory Revealed'
Reader Comments
Posted by Roderick Morgan in Somerset @ 06:28 on Jan 14 2010
I would be very happy to make contact with Selwyn Grey or, indeed, with any of the other ex Newcastle Cathedral Choir School pupils he mentions.
I would be very happy to make contact with Selwyn Grey or, indeed, with any of the other ex Newcastle Cathedral Choir School pupils he mentions.
Reply by David Thompson in newcastle upon Tyne @ 22:21 on Nov 18 2011
Hi Rod. You probably don't remember me. I was a member of Bede rugby team. I seem to recall you were in Chad. All I remember is you were the Jona Lomu of our era, and only my friend and classmate Paul Davidson, half your size was able to get anywhere near you in inter "house" challenges". I'm still in touch with Paul, Tom & Jim Lillico. Miss the old school, Sheila o'R, Loopy lowther, Mr Clarkson, Mr Cutts etc. Please email to dthom70623@gmail.com if you get to read this.
Hi Rod. You probably don't remember me. I was a member of Bede rugby team. I seem to recall you were in Chad. All I remember is you were the Jona Lomu of our era, and only my friend and classmate Paul Davidson, half your size was able to get anywhere near you in inter "house" challenges". I'm still in touch with Paul, Tom & Jim Lillico. Miss the old school, Sheila o'R, Loopy lowther, Mr Clarkson, Mr Cutts etc. Please email to dthom70623@gmail.com if you get to read this.
Reply by Ron Harrison in Durham @ 07:42 on May 16 2011
Hi Rod, I have been in contact with Les Gray but that seems to have died the death. How is life treating you?I was a property lawyer based in Newcastle but retired on health grounds. Would be pleased to hear from you and in deed any of our other former form mates
Hi Rod, I have been in contact with Les Gray but that seems to have died the death. How is life treating you?I was a property lawyer based in Newcastle but retired on health grounds. Would be pleased to hear from you and in deed any of our other former form mates
Reply by Ron Harrison in Durham @ 16:26 on Apr 27 2011
As a former chorister and a member of your form, it would be nice to hear how you are getting on. Also people like Selwyn Grey, John Healey, Ken Black, Tim Stone(the list goes on)
As a former chorister and a member of your form, it would be nice to hear how you are getting on. Also people like Selwyn Grey, John Healey, Ken Black, Tim Stone(the list goes on)
Reply by Selwyn Gray in newcastle @ 10:03 on Feb 3 2010
Hi Rod, you can contact me on
scoots07@blueyonder.co.uk if you wish, would be nice to catch up
Hi Rod, you can contact me on
scoots07@blueyonder.co.uk if you wish, would be nice to catch up
Posted by Derek Pattison in Weardale @ 11:42 on Dec 5 2009
I was a pupil at the school around 1950-53. I was not a choirister but I remember "Father Norris" as he was refered to. There is in existence a photograph of the shool and its staff and pupils taken in 1951. I would like to make contact with pupils of that period and in particular those of my year like Norman Brunskill, John Potts, The Fairley Twins etc.
Sad to read that is closed in 1977
I was a pupil at the school around 1950-53. I was not a choirister but I remember "Father Norris" as he was refered to. There is in existence a photograph of the shool and its staff and pupils taken in 1951. I would like to make contact with pupils of that period and in particular those of my year like Norman Brunskill, John Potts, The Fairley Twins etc.
Sad to read that is closed in 1977
Reply by Miss Jill Ramshaw in North Yorkshire @ 17:14 on May 17 2011
Interested that there is a photo from 1951 in existence. My brother was Peter Ramshaw, who died tragically in 1980. His two daughters would love a photo of their dad as pupil and chorister at the Choir School. Can you help? Please use email address supplied - jillnchris@onetel.com
Interested that there is a photo from 1951 in existence. My brother was Peter Ramshaw, who died tragically in 1980. His two daughters would love a photo of their dad as pupil and chorister at the Choir School. Can you help? Please use email address supplied - jillnchris@onetel.com
Reply by Tony Greener in East Sussex @ 22:29 on May 19 2010
I also still have a school photo - taken in 1961. Its a bit battered now - but so was the school then.
I remember all those masters - only too well. "Loopy" Lowther did take us for French but also history, English and I think even art once or twice. it ws all run on something of a shoestring. But he was the first person i ever remember mentioning Tolkien, especially orcs, so he deserves a vivid plce in the memory for that. MR Cutter was English masdter befoe him and used to read an Arthur Ransome every Friday, completing one a term. It was Winter Holiday first, then Pigeon Post and theh have sgtayed with me ever since; I even read them all to my daughter at bedtime (when she was young of course; she's married now)so it may be true that very early impressions stick for life. Good for Mr (David?) Cutter I say
I also still have a school photo - taken in 1961. Its a bit battered now - but so was the school then.
I remember all those masters - only too well. "Loopy" Lowther did take us for French but also history, English and I think even art once or twice. it ws all run on something of a shoestring. But he was the first person i ever remember mentioning Tolkien, especially orcs, so he deserves a vivid plce in the memory for that. MR Cutter was English masdter befoe him and used to read an Arthur Ransome every Friday, completing one a term. It was Winter Holiday first, then Pigeon Post and theh have sgtayed with me ever since; I even read them all to my daughter at bedtime (when she was young of course; she's married now)so it may be true that very early impressions stick for life. Good for Mr (David?) Cutter I say
Posted by ian whyte in whitley bay @ 16:02 on Nov 8 2009
I seem to be the oldest contributer so far! I joined the school and choir in 1951. The head was big black Basil (Norris) also tthe precentor at the cathedral. Consequently it seemed we never got away from him.
I was 9 when I started so I never had the pleasure of being taught (sic) by miss O`Reilly. I did however have her supervision in art classes, where her favorite comment was "White lifes too short to stand and dream." (a habit I`ve never lost thank goodness.) The organist and choir marster was Kenneth F. Malcomson always referred to as "the boss". The head corner boy (Decani) was fred Cummings who ruled the choir whith a rod of iron (actually a rather battered chair leg).
In my class was one of the last boarders Tony Edwards son of a vicker who became a bank manager. the fees a that time were 4gns a term for the choristers and 7gns for non choristers. Enough rambling for today.
I seem to be the oldest contributer so far! I joined the school and choir in 1951. The head was big black Basil (Norris) also tthe precentor at the cathedral. Consequently it seemed we never got away from him.
I was 9 when I started so I never had the pleasure of being taught (sic) by miss O`Reilly. I did however have her supervision in art classes, where her favorite comment was "White lifes too short to stand and dream." (a habit I`ve never lost thank goodness.) The organist and choir marster was Kenneth F. Malcomson always referred to as "the boss". The head corner boy (Decani) was fred Cummings who ruled the choir whith a rod of iron (actually a rather battered chair leg).
In my class was one of the last boarders Tony Edwards son of a vicker who became a bank manager. the fees a that time were 4gns a term for the choristers and 7gns for non choristers. Enough rambling for today.
Reply by Miss Jillian Ramshaw in North Yorkshire @ 19:37 on May 15 2011
My brother Peter was a chorister for about 8 years at N/cle Cathedral and was a pupil at the Choir School at about the same time as you. He died in tragic circumstances in 1980 and his two daughters are only now talking about him and want to know as much as possible. It has been a very sad time. I have read all the comments by people on this site and the names are familiar. Peter enjoyed a History teacher, whose name I don't recall. I remeber him talking about Mr Lowther. I am desperate for any photos of him in th choir or recordings of music performed by it - the choir was certainly on the BBC for evensong at some point. I should be grateful for anything you can manage
My brother Peter was a chorister for about 8 years at N/cle Cathedral and was a pupil at the Choir School at about the same time as you. He died in tragic circumstances in 1980 and his two daughters are only now talking about him and want to know as much as possible. It has been a very sad time. I have read all the comments by people on this site and the names are familiar. Peter enjoyed a History teacher, whose name I don't recall. I remeber him talking about Mr Lowther. I am desperate for any photos of him in th choir or recordings of music performed by it - the choir was certainly on the BBC for evensong at some point. I should be grateful for anything you can manage
Reply by John S Taylor in Spain @ 17:54 on Aug 27 2010
AG David Cutter (My son's godfather) is still fit and well at 80 and living in Wells. He'll be delighted to know that the Arthur Ransomes are remembered with affection. David is rather deaf these days. At his godson's wedding reception he surveyed my daughter-in-law and her sisters and observed, accurately but rather too loudly in that fruity baritone 'Well, Richard's certainly bagged the pick of this bunch.'
I was a lay-clerk at Newcastle in 1986-1990
AG David Cutter (My son's godfather) is still fit and well at 80 and living in Wells. He'll be delighted to know that the Arthur Ransomes are remembered with affection. David is rather deaf these days. At his godson's wedding reception he surveyed my daughter-in-law and her sisters and observed, accurately but rather too loudly in that fruity baritone 'Well, Richard's certainly bagged the pick of this bunch.'
I was a lay-clerk at Newcastle in 1986-1990
Reply by Selwyn Gray in newcastle @ 17:38 on Feb 6 2010
Kenneth F. Malcomson
His favourite song which he made us all sing was
"Just as the sun was rising I heard a maiden sing in the valley below. Wish I had a £1 for every time we sang it
Kenneth F. Malcomson
His favourite song which he made us all sing was
"Just as the sun was rising I heard a maiden sing in the valley below. Wish I had a £1 for every time we sang it
Posted by Mike Higgins in Montrose,Scotland @ 19:18 on Aug 26 2009
quite amazing the things you come across while surfing ! I was a pupil at this very run down establishment between 1968 and 1973 and although not a chorister (outwardly identified by silver hoops on blazer sleeves and cap-still got mine even though I remember promising to burn it on leaving !) I did make many trips to the cathedral and was wholeheartedly impressed by the work of Missin and East et all-incidentally Graeme East nicknamed me "windmill" referring to me constantly putting my hand in the air asking him to explain logarithms to me again and again...
Although hopefully not a reflection on me personally but from the moment I arrived at the school and was faced with the terrifying prospect of trying not to incur the wrath of Miss O`Reilly and keep Mr Lowther`s cane at bay till the day I left following my final GCE o-level exam the place and it`s reputation went rapidly downhill. That`s not to say that I didn`t have some good times there and would love to meet up with former classmates and chew the fat...
Thanks for reading and regards to all who know and remember me.
quite amazing the things you come across while surfing ! I was a pupil at this very run down establishment between 1968 and 1973 and although not a chorister (outwardly identified by silver hoops on blazer sleeves and cap-still got mine even though I remember promising to burn it on leaving !) I did make many trips to the cathedral and was wholeheartedly impressed by the work of Missin and East et all-incidentally Graeme East nicknamed me "windmill" referring to me constantly putting my hand in the air asking him to explain logarithms to me again and again...
Although hopefully not a reflection on me personally but from the moment I arrived at the school and was faced with the terrifying prospect of trying not to incur the wrath of Miss O`Reilly and keep Mr Lowther`s cane at bay till the day I left following my final GCE o-level exam the place and it`s reputation went rapidly downhill. That`s not to say that I didn`t have some good times there and would love to meet up with former classmates and chew the fat...
Thanks for reading and regards to all who know and remember me.
Reply by Henry Salkeld in Essex @ 19:46 on Jan 17 2012
Hello, Does anyone remember me? Henry Salkeld, I was a chorister " under " Mr. Missin and remember the rather pleasant Mr. East. My recolection of my choir days were for getting off school and penguin biscuit tea's in the cathedral vestry. Would like to hear from anyone that can fill in the gaps around 1972, My memory has faded somewhat over time. However I do recal Mrs. Wright who referred to us as Buzz instead of boys! I also recall playing marbles in the playground. If anyone can recall the time on or around 1972 please get in touch. My only other memory of the time was the introduction of beef barbeque crisps from the tuck shop. Help me now, I need to find out! Thank-you and look forward to hearing from you. Henry, now known as Mark.
Hello, Does anyone remember me? Henry Salkeld, I was a chorister " under " Mr. Missin and remember the rather pleasant Mr. East. My recolection of my choir days were for getting off school and penguin biscuit tea's in the cathedral vestry. Would like to hear from anyone that can fill in the gaps around 1972, My memory has faded somewhat over time. However I do recal Mrs. Wright who referred to us as Buzz instead of boys! I also recall playing marbles in the playground. If anyone can recall the time on or around 1972 please get in touch. My only other memory of the time was the introduction of beef barbeque crisps from the tuck shop. Help me now, I need to find out! Thank-you and look forward to hearing from you. Henry, now known as Mark.
Reply by miles templeton in richmond north yorkshire @ 21:31 on Oct 25 2009
mickey (as I remember you)
I was in your class and lived in the next street, as I am sure that you will remember. You are spot on about the school declining in standard between 1968 and 1973, the same years that I was a pupil. If you fancy chewing the fat some time then drop me an email (miles.channelhouse@tiscali.co.uk). I think that Mr Lowther left about a year after us and was replaced by Mr Matthew England.
mickey (as I remember you)
I was in your class and lived in the next street, as I am sure that you will remember. You are spot on about the school declining in standard between 1968 and 1973, the same years that I was a pupil. If you fancy chewing the fat some time then drop me an email (miles.channelhouse@tiscali.co.uk). I think that Mr Lowther left about a year after us and was replaced by Mr Matthew England.
Posted by Thomas Sinclair in Newcastle @ 20:20 on Jan 7 2009
I was a chorister up to 2008 and was head, Scott is a brilliant man and I will always have fantastic memories
I was a chorister up to 2008 and was head, Scott is a brilliant man and I will always have fantastic memories
Posted by Steven in Reading @ 22:43 on Dec 8 2008
I was a chorister in 1982 - 84 and have fond memories of Russell Missin, It would be interesting to compile a list of all the choristers. I am trying hard to remember the name of Mr Missin's assistant "Keith" i don't know his surname. Ian St-Clare was my best friend there and the trip to Scarborough in 1983 was fantastic. Happy memories of Newcastle Cathedral Choir.
I was a chorister in 1982 - 84 and have fond memories of Russell Missin, It would be interesting to compile a list of all the choristers. I am trying hard to remember the name of Mr Missin's assistant "Keith" i don't know his surname. Ian St-Clare was my best friend there and the trip to Scarborough in 1983 was fantastic. Happy memories of Newcastle Cathedral Choir.
Reply by Kenneth Robinson in Poland @ 22:36 on Nov 8 2010
Well, I was a lay-clerk under Russell and Scott! I have many interesting memories about Newcastle Cathedral Choir. Alan Millington ('Mr. Mantlepiece') was a great man. Please contact me all of you chaps from the 80's.
Best wishes to you all.
Kenneth
P.S Alex Petrie!!!!!!
Well, I was a lay-clerk under Russell and Scott! I have many interesting memories about Newcastle Cathedral Choir. Alan Millington ('Mr. Mantlepiece') was a great man. Please contact me all of you chaps from the 80's.
Best wishes to you all.
Kenneth
P.S Alex Petrie!!!!!!
Reply by ANDREW COLLETT in SPALDING @ 19:30 on Jul 22 2010
Keith Downey was his name. He was a teacher at a school in Gateshead and now plays the organ for various churches in the area.
Keith Downey was his name. He was a teacher at a school in Gateshead and now plays the organ for various churches in the area.
Posted by Nigel Johnson in Tynemouth and Dubai @ 13:03 on Oct 26 2008
I attended Newcastle Cathedral school also I think I started there in 1964 joined the choir in 1965 when colin ross was there ending up as head chorsiter when russell mission and greame east were there. Very happy days seems a million years ago. When I was there we had a very strong choir there must of been about 25 boys in the choir
I attended Newcastle Cathedral school also I think I started there in 1964 joined the choir in 1965 when colin ross was there ending up as head chorsiter when russell mission and greame east were there. Very happy days seems a million years ago. When I was there we had a very strong choir there must of been about 25 boys in the choir
Reply by Clive Moore in United Kingdom @ 13:34 on Jul 11 2010
I was there between 1962 and 1969. I don't remember many of the names on this blog. Does anyone remember me?
I was there between 1962 and 1969. I don't remember many of the names on this blog. Does anyone remember me?
Posted by Ian Barnes in Newcastle upon Tyne @ 02:26 on Aug 27 2008
The state of the building Newcastle cathedral School ,our founder, together, with Sheila O reilley would be appauled
Newcastle Cathedral School together with being a chorsiter within the cathedral have been something I will never forget thye were very happy days
The state of the building Newcastle cathedral School ,our founder, together, with Sheila O reilley would be appauled
Newcastle Cathedral School together with being a chorsiter within the cathedral have been something I will never forget thye were very happy days
Reply by Selwyn Gray in Newcastle @ 12:16 on Sep 28 2009
Sheila O reilley was the first form teacher when I was there, the first head was Father Norris followed by Father Beckerleg, the maths teacher was "Sam" Shepard, french was Mr. Lowther, Geography was Mr. Clarkson, Latin was Mr "Glaydis" Longshaw, English was Mr Reggie Woodhouse, thats about all I can remember as I am 63 years old now !!!!
Sheila O reilley was the first form teacher when I was there, the first head was Father Norris followed by Father Beckerleg, the maths teacher was "Sam" Shepard, french was Mr. Lowther, Geography was Mr. Clarkson, Latin was Mr "Glaydis" Longshaw, English was Mr Reggie Woodhouse, thats about all I can remember as I am 63 years old now !!!!
Posted by Tony Greener in Sussex @ 16:17 on Jun 2 2008
well, there used to be a cathedral choir school because I attended it and was also head boy of the
choir for a year.
The organist and choir master was Colin Ross who subsequently went to Sydney; his assistant was Brian Hesford who went I think to Chichester and later Graeme East.
Somewhere I even have a recording made in around 1961/2; I left a year later.
The school became the Grainger Grammar School (it was in Grainger Park Road) amnd existed until at least 1984 because I was in touch with it then. The buildings are now either private houses or, in one part, a centre for Turkish immigrants and, ironically, a mosque.
When I attended the school had about 120 pupils all boys, from 7-8 when the entrance exam took place up to the age of 16. We nearly all went on to other schools for sixth form; I went to Dame Allans. I know that financial difficulties were experienced in the 1960s because my parents helped to form a PTA to raise funds. The academic standards also fell at that time. The school ahd originally ebe foudndf by the Cathedral clergy wih the aid of a trust (and the property) from a lady called Theresa Mirtz or Mertz, who was I think Jewish but presumably a Christian Jew. There were several Christian Jews as pupils.
I still sing when time permits and my daughter is starting a career as a professinal singer and singing teacher. But we're a dying breed.
well, there used to be a cathedral choir school because I attended it and was also head boy of the
choir for a year.
The organist and choir master was Colin Ross who subsequently went to Sydney; his assistant was Brian Hesford who went I think to Chichester and later Graeme East.
Somewhere I even have a recording made in around 1961/2; I left a year later.
The school became the Grainger Grammar School (it was in Grainger Park Road) amnd existed until at least 1984 because I was in touch with it then. The buildings are now either private houses or, in one part, a centre for Turkish immigrants and, ironically, a mosque.
When I attended the school had about 120 pupils all boys, from 7-8 when the entrance exam took place up to the age of 16. We nearly all went on to other schools for sixth form; I went to Dame Allans. I know that financial difficulties were experienced in the 1960s because my parents helped to form a PTA to raise funds. The academic standards also fell at that time. The school ahd originally ebe foudndf by the Cathedral clergy wih the aid of a trust (and the property) from a lady called Theresa Mirtz or Mertz, who was I think Jewish but presumably a Christian Jew. There were several Christian Jews as pupils.
I still sing when time permits and my daughter is starting a career as a professinal singer and singing teacher. But we're a dying breed.
Reply by Selwyn Gray in Newcastle @ 12:06 on Sep 28 2009
I also was at the Choir School, think Rod Morgan was in my class.
The first headmaster I remember was father Norris, followed by Father beckerleg, after I left I think Mr Lowther the french master became head.
Would love to get in touch with others like Rod Morgan, Ken Black (head boy), John Healy, Chris Copack, Glen Kilday, Ronald Harrison, David Campbell, Bruce Hogg (left to go to Royal GS and became a Dentist)
I also was at the Choir School, think Rod Morgan was in my class.
The first headmaster I remember was father Norris, followed by Father beckerleg, after I left I think Mr Lowther the french master became head.
Would love to get in touch with others like Rod Morgan, Ken Black (head boy), John Healy, Chris Copack, Glen Kilday, Ronald Harrison, David Campbell, Bruce Hogg (left to go to Royal GS and became a Dentist)
Reply by Roderick Morgan in Somerset @ 07:56 on Feb 2 2009
I too was a choirister at Newcastle Cathedral Choir School and would like to make contact with some of my old classmates. I left around 1964 after Alan ? took over as Headmaster. (He had been the French Master prior to this appointment) Please let me have any further details you may have.
Kind regards
Roderick Morgan
I too was a choirister at Newcastle Cathedral Choir School and would like to make contact with some of my old classmates. I left around 1964 after Alan ? took over as Headmaster. (He had been the French Master prior to this appointment) Please let me have any further details you may have.
Kind regards
Roderick Morgan
Reply by Paul A Jones in Gateshead @ 15:41 on Jul 10 2008
Tony -
As a former Pupil, Choirboy, Head Choirster, Ley Clark, and finaly Verger of St Nicks (was connected with the Cathedral later than you but for almost 20 years), it is good to see your comments on the CD. I still pop back into the Cathedral now and again.
When I was there it was Russell Missin who was Choir Master (later Dr R.A. Missin). But the Choir school closed in 1977 - the term after I joined to be come the Grainger Grammar School and took in its first female pupil. I do remember Greame East very fondly as he was also on hand either at the school as Assistant to Matthew England or as Assistent to Russell. Greame moved back to Ipswich in around 1980 to look after his mother. You will remember his car I am sure. But there was also the deputy assistant organist as well Keith Downey, who was equally good at his post, and later Mike Dutton (who is still there).
At one point the choir had only 7 boys, and it was proposed (Easter 1977) that girls would be admitted into the choir for the first time. Which didn't go down too well with the parents.
Following Russell's retirement Tim Hone was appointed before he moved to Litchfield (I think) then came Scott Farrell who has just agreed to take up a new possition at Rochester Cathedral. He leaves the choir in a very good possition, singing better than they have for many years.
I also have old recordings of the choir as well - which occasionally I still listern to.
Tony -
As a former Pupil, Choirboy, Head Choirster, Ley Clark, and finaly Verger of St Nicks (was connected with the Cathedral later than you but for almost 20 years), it is good to see your comments on the CD. I still pop back into the Cathedral now and again.
When I was there it was Russell Missin who was Choir Master (later Dr R.A. Missin). But the Choir school closed in 1977 - the term after I joined to be come the Grainger Grammar School and took in its first female pupil. I do remember Greame East very fondly as he was also on hand either at the school as Assistant to Matthew England or as Assistent to Russell. Greame moved back to Ipswich in around 1980 to look after his mother. You will remember his car I am sure. But there was also the deputy assistant organist as well Keith Downey, who was equally good at his post, and later Mike Dutton (who is still there).
At one point the choir had only 7 boys, and it was proposed (Easter 1977) that girls would be admitted into the choir for the first time. Which didn't go down too well with the parents.
Following Russell's retirement Tim Hone was appointed before he moved to Litchfield (I think) then came Scott Farrell who has just agreed to take up a new possition at Rochester Cathedral. He leaves the choir in a very good possition, singing better than they have for many years.
I also have old recordings of the choir as well - which occasionally I still listern to.
The opinions expressed in the Reader Comments are not necessarily those held by Cross Rhythms.
I was glad to discover these comments about the Cathedral School. I was a pupil there from 1962, leaving in July 1970. My memories of the place are largely happy, mainly due to the inspirational music teaching and choral directing of Mr East. I still, at the age of fifty-five, thank him mentally for the fact that I became a musician and teacher. We were also fortunate with many of our other teachers. Mr Lowther and Miss O'Reilly remain fond memories. Both, I believe, died many years ago. Like another contributor, I, too, visited what had been the school on a trip to Newcastle. It was a strange and somewhat depressing experience to pick my way through the wreckage and weeds of what had once been the lower school yard. I was glad that, after all her kindness to us boys and her touching faith in the school, Miss O'Reilly never saw the wretched decline the place had undergone. I recall well the ideals she used to utter in her long monologues; values that came from a world now, it seems sadly, gone forever. Sic transit gloria mundi!
I spent two years in the cathedral choir; one as a probationer and one without ever gaining the award of a surplice! I can, thus, be classed as a failed chorister. Mr Ross saw no musical worth in me whatsoever and made it all too plain. He was right in his assessment at the time, though it was ironically he who was the Associated Board examiner who marked me as a merit in my grade 8 piano exam eight years later. I doubt he remembered me and I didn't feel inclined to remind him who I was. He was, by all accounts, a remarkable musician.
Happy memories! If any of my old teachers should come across this, please accept my thanks for the help you gave me at the time. I wasn't easy!