Mike: I was talking to a friend of mine saying I was going to be talking to you today and they said that you write books for the slacker generation. Is that how you would see yourself?

Don: No absolutely not. I would say he hasn't read my books.

Mike: How would you describe yourself then?

Don: I wouldn't.

Mike: OK. Well, very disingenuous. So why do you object to the description of you writing books for the slacker generation?

Don: Well I don't know what he means by a slacker generation. I think everybody who's old believes that the generation beneath theirs is not as good as theirs right? So, it's an arrogant statement for him to say that. So I don't know. I did a book tour recently in sixty five cities here in the United States and half the people in the audience were younger than me, half the people were older. So, hopefully it's reaching out beyond that. 'Blue Like Jazz' definitely hit a theme with the generation who are looking for their identity, people who are trying to figure out what they're going to do with their lives, there's no question.

Mike: The journey for this book shook you out of your apathy. What changes have you made since the book has been published? What have you been pursuing?

Don: Imagine my life before. I was just waking up every day, writing books; my life was heading toward being somebody who sold a lot of books. And I realised that that was not a very meaningful experience, and it certainly didn't feel very meaningful. So I really tapped into my heart trying to figure out what I wanted to do. And I ended up riding my bicycle across America to raise a bunch of money for drilling wells in Africa, and starting a mentoring programme. That is attempting to answer the crisis of fatherlessness here in America. And those are very sacrificial things that aren't going to get me a lot of glory, and they're not going to sell a lot of books. And obviously they're very expensive. But at the same time my life is much much better because I did that. And I think that's what this book is really about. We think that if we have a lot of money or if we're successful; if we have a nice house, we think if we have this relationship, everything's going to be great. But the truth is it's not; and the stuff that makes up a great life is different than what we think it would be. It involves sacrificing ourselves for the sake of other people.

Mike: What about day to day life? You're throwing yourself into projects but how's your walking around life become more meaningful?

Don: Well day to day - you know it's funny writing a book is a very boring process, and you have to get up and work just like anybody else. Sit at the computer and slog through your daily quota of words. But it's when you're done; it's such a fulfilling experience. I think sometimes life is that way too. If you're building a mentoring programme, or if you're doing these kind of things, or you're raising a family; it can get very monotonous at times, and you really don't want to show up sometimes. But you know that at the end of a month or a year, you're going to look back, and there's going to be so much that you've enjoyed; so many beautiful moments. You get up and just do your work every day.

Mike: One of the things I'm interested about - because people find their meaning or find their expression of their meaning within a church community; and you're part of a church community in Portland. What happens at a grass roots level there for you in terms of this whole thing about self-sacrifice? I would imagine it gets worked out within the community doesn't it?

Don: Well sort of. I think a church community can help, when you share you lives with other people it certainly gets better. You know Victor Frankl talked about the three elements of a meaningful life are to have a project that you really love, and to share that with people who you really love. And then to have an explanation for your suffering. So Christian theology gives us an explanation for our suffering. We are waiting for the return of Christ. We are sacrificing carrying a cross for Him. And then we do so in the community, in the family with other people. And so, experiencing meaning can be done certainly in church communities.

Mike: After the success of Blue Light Jazz, did you find many Miller tourists turning up at your church?

Don: You know we did. We had a lot of people - hundreds of people come to the church because of that book. Not because of the book but because they discovered it through that book and they found a home. And it's been terrific.

Mike: What would have happened to you in the last couple of years if Steve Taylor hadn't turned up to write a screen play for Blue Light Jazz?

Don: You know I honestly shudder to think of it. If I wouldn't have discovered the elements of story or the elements of a more meaningful life, I don't know what. It really has been that important of a journey to me to discover that the element of a meaningful life are also the elements of a meaningful story; and to structure my life as a story. Be a character that's trying to accomplish something that's willing to overcome conflict to do it. So I think in many ways, Steve saved me from a life of boredom and meaninglessness.

Mike: One of the problems though is, that unlike a writer of a story, you're not necessarily in control of the narrative of your own story, are you?

Don: No, not at all. It's not like sitting down to write a novel, in the sense that you control all the elements. Life throws us some really hard things sometimes. You know it's interesting that all the conflict that comes into our lives, can only serve to bless us, no matter how hard things get. A story is made more beautiful when you increase the conflict. We watch movies and we like the conflict, but we live in lives and we hate it. But the truth is conflict just makes everything much much better in the long run if you have the right attitude toward it. So we can't run from conflict.

Mike: But in reality there are a lot of people who have stories that have exceedingly unhappy endings to them.

Don: That's true. And we would hope that life is not over on this planet. But the other thing is that there is no guarantee that life is a comedy. I mean life could be tragic if you think about some of the people who have had the hardest lives. You know we visited Africa just recently; and went to Uganda and went to the refugee camps there. And saw the dismal conditions the people were living in. But there was also, at the same time, still a joy amongst those people. And so joy and happiness in life can take place no matter how hard the conditions are. I wanted to tap into that in the book; try to find out what it is that's actually meaningful, apart from the things that we think make up a meaningful life.

Mike: So do you know what you're going to do next?

Don: You know I don't. I have a friend who would like to possibly work on a television show; and so I may get started on that. I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do next; it's a bit up in the air right now. The mentoring project takes a lot of my time, and I'll continue to work on that for sure.

Mike: So is the mentoring project one of the things that's stopping you falling back into apathy again?

Don: Absolutely. It's not an option. You know when you have people depending on you to show up and do something, it's not an option to fall back into apathy; you have to keep working.

Mike: Do you think by nature, by character, you are entropic? And that your life tends towards chaos and apathy unless you find something useful to do?

Don: Oh I do yes. I think unless you're intentional with your life, there's no question it's not going to be a very interesting story. That's it. It's funny you know - Christians a lot of the time are waiting on God to help them write a beautiful story or do something or tell them what to do. And often I think that God is handing us a pen and saying, no you write something; you create something beautiful with your life. And the more we understand the concept that He's actually giving me the creative freedom to do something with my life, I think the better our lives actually are.

Mike: Do you think a lot of people just don't understand that they can actually do something, that they feel somehow constrained?

Don: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that most people are waiting for something. They don't believe that they can make something beautiful happen with their lives. And so we live a meaningless boring existence because we waited the whole time for something to happen rather than taking it into our hands and making it happen.